Episode 7 transcript

There’s a loose kind of thread that’s emerged over kind of this episode and the next couple of episodes coming up in Sniper’s, and that subject is change. And I think that’s a big thing when you are in Sniper’s Alley, when you’re around about your 50s. I think there are big changes that go on, and it, you know, as we’ve discussed, the phrase Sniper’s Alley is often to do with changes in health, but can be because of changes in career, which is what we’re going to talk about today. Yeah, I think that’s probably one of the biggest misconceptions that maybe younger people have about people who are aging.

They would think, oh, they’re more stuck in their ways. This is a period that they don’t change. But actually, all around me, people are changing. So they’re changing their jobs, they’re changing their relationships, they’re changing— and I think there’s a real sense of, if I don’t do it now, when am I going to do it?

And that was definitely the theme of the person who got in touch with us. You’re going to hear from Glenn Stokes in a minute. Glenn’s 55, lives in northeast London in Walthamstow, and he was— he got in touch via Instagram, didn’t he? Yeah, he messaged us.

And if you do want to get in touch, we’re— if you go to Instagram, we’re Sniper’s Alley Podcast. If you do a search for us there, you’ll find us, and you can obviously message or leave comments. And we’re finding more and more that people are getting in touch, and it’s— we’ve always said that Sniper’s Alley is a two-way street, you know, it’s not just me and Em. Banging on.

It’s not a cul-de-sac. That’s right, it’s Sniper’s Alley. You don’t get one-way alleys. So yeah, Glenn was one of the people who got in touch and he said that he’s— so what’s happened with Glenn is that he’s in his mid-50s and he’s had quite a dramatic change of career.

And so he was, for over 20 years, he was working in music publishing. So this is this huge side of the music business where they make sure that, you know, if Taylor Swift has a song played on Radio 1, that she needs to get paid for that. And it’s why on podcasts like ours, you don’t hear music because we’d have to pay for the rights. So that’s what, that’s what Glenn was involved in.

But through a series of kind of things that happened in his life, he made quite a drastic change career-wise. And I think this conversation with Glenn, it’ll be, even if you’re not thinking about changing careers. But like Em said, if you are changing, there’s relationship changes on the way, or just kind of any sort of change, I think what Glenn says could be very relevant and possibly helpful. I think a lot of people live with this quiet nagging sense that they made these decisions about of their life a while ago that no longer serve them, or that they served them for a while, but they’re not serving them now.

And I think Glenn covers that in such an interesting way. He talks about why working in the industry that he was working with no longer kind of— I know this sounds a bit naff— but no longer brought him joy, no longer kind of, you know, and why he fell into what he decided to do. It’s a really lovely story. I was weirdly moved by it.

I was really unexpectedly moved by it. Emilie had an emotion. Some people said this wasn’t possible, but Emilie emoted. Yeah.

It wasn’t even a sarky one. It was a nice one. It wasn’t even sarcastic. No, it was a good one.

The title for this episode is now gonna be Emilie Had a Nice Emotion. I think that’s great. Right, let’s hear from Glenn. Let’s find out what inspired this emotion.

This is incredible. Let’s hear from Glenn. He started off by talking a little bit about his previous career that he left. You know, I love the job.

Like, I was there 22 years, and I’ve always loved music and the music industry. You know, it’s full of musicians. You know, people that work in the music industry, on the whole, love music, and they are either music fans or they were musicians at whatever level themselves. Great people.

But, um, in 2018, a bolt out of the blue came along in my world and my wife’s world when my wife got diagnosed with breast cancer. Oh, I’m sorry, Glenn. Ah, thank you. Um, she, she, you know, that was an awful year, and thankfully, you know, she’s, she came through it and, you know, we’re cracking on with things now.

But, you know, that was a hell of a blow, you know, massive blow to both of us. And so that year was, yeah, the worst year on record. I won’t lie, going through all the treatment. But, you know, as I’m sure, you know, you’ve heard from anyone else that you spoke to that’s been touched by cancer, you know, it changes life, you know, on a massive scale and certainly your priorities shift hugely.

So that really, you know, that really was That first, shall I say, the first wake-up call possibly, you know, to where I was and what I was doing. Fast forward a couple of years, we’re straight into lockdown, or it felt like we were going straight into lockdown. Another big change. And mentally, I’ll be honest, I found that quite difficult.

You know, the whole Zoom culture, the Teams culture hadn’t really been a thing up until that point. You know, I found it difficult in the sense of, you know, the workspace is in my house now. I found it, I couldn’t sort of square that off. I found it quite, I guess, almost invasive or something at the time.

And I struggled with that. So we get through lockdown 2022, I guess early ’22 during that time. So obviously what happened for the majority of, well, all people that worked in offices, we had a break. We had to leave the office.

We’re all working from home. So I didn’t see a lot of close colleagues or friends apart from the video screens. And then early ’22, I lost a good friend of mine that I’d worked with at that company for all those years. He unfortunately got cancer during lockdown and I didn’t see him.

So the last time I saw him was when we all left in 2020. That was another massive shock and another, ah man, what’s going on? Question in life and just that sense that we’re all getting older and what You know, what does it all mean? You start to reflect and look at things. 3 days after his funeral, another good work friend of mine handed in a notice.

Now, myself, her, and, and, and, and my friend, we were, we were really tight. We were really close. We’d all been in that company a long time. So I felt a little bit isolated, if I’m honest, at that point.

Um, just because I didn’t feel that I had my buddies. And I think we did, you know, if I’m being honest, on reflection, we all I think we all leant on one another a lot and relied on one another. You know, we looked forward to seeing one another when we were at work, getting to work. And, you know, I can’t speak for the other 2, but it was almost like, I’m pleased that they’re there.

You know, it made, it made it, it made going into the office almost worthwhile knowing that they were around. And the same year, David Bowie film was released. I don’t know if you’re a fan, but it was, um, it’s called Moonage Daydream. It was a, it was a documentary piece.

And I went along to a screening of that. And, you know, there was a moment in it and I never, you know, thought it would happen. It had quite a profound effect on me, on my life. It was just a quote that he said in one of the Talking Heads pieces about creatives or people in the workspace.

And is it, I just thought it would give context to the, you know, why that had an effect on me. So he said, if you feel safe in the area you’re working in, you’re not working in the right area. Always go a little further into the water than you feel you’re capable of being in. Go a little bit out of your depth.

And when you don’t feel that your feet are quite touching the bottom, you’re just about in the right place to do something exciting. That was actually sent to me yesterday. So somebody sent me that on WhatsApp. It was on Instagram, I think, and somebody sent it to me as an Instagram reel.

Because, you know, we’re doing this and, but we were talking about how being at this age. Don’t get too comfortable, if you see what I mean. Don’t kind of, you know, that now is the time that if you’re going to push yourself— I think we were talking about this the other day, Rob— is that if you’re not going to do it now, then when are you going to do it? Yeah.

And it’s easy, I think, I think when one has made that change or made that decision, I suppose, you— is it easier to sort of say that, like, you know, on reflection when you’ve made a change? Because I get for a lot of a lot of people that it, you know, saying it and doing it, the two, you know, there’s, there’s a big gap between the two, isn’t there? It’s like, how do you make a change? What does that look like?

You know, to a lot of people it’s like, I don’t know how to do that. Well, I think, I think it’s something that when you get to round about this age, around the, you know, the Sniper’s Alley age, sort of like early 50s, say, that you, I think you, you do start looking back a bit, don’t you? And you start kind of assessing where you are now. And I think maybe a lot of us a while back assumed that when we got to this age, we’d be exactly where we want to be, that we know what we’re doing, that we’re all sorted.

And of course, you know, it’s far from that, isn’t it? Yeah, I guess 50 is like— it’s like a— it’s like the day, you know, of a sun cycle, isn’t it? 50 is the sun at its peak, and then all of a sudden it starts to dip. Maybe that’s the way we look at it and think, oh gosh, right. Oh, I like that.

I think there’s another quote, and I’m gonna completely butcher it. I can’t remember. I can’t even remember who said it, but I have a feeling it might have been Anaïs Nin, somebody like that. And it’s essentially, you spend all your life being afraid to do something, like, am I ready?

Do I know how to do something? And then suddenly you hit this age and you’re afraid not to do it because you’re afraid you’re gonna run out of time and you won’t have time to do it. And I think those two— you’re gonna feel afraid whatever, You’ve just got to kind of pick your motivation. Yeah, and understand what it is you’re afraid of.

Do you fear failure or do you fear success? Oh yeah, interesting. And all those events in your life leading up to this, Glenn, and the lives of those around you as well, these were huge changes. From, from losing a close friend and your wife’s diagnosis and, you know, the whole COVID— these were all things that inspire sort of existential thoughts, aren’t they?

These are the, these are the biggies. Yeah, they are, you know. So you’re right, they, they go beyond what we naturally may feel. Like you just said, we get to sort of late 40s, early 50s, we start doing that reflection.

But then there are the other things that happen that are External factors that if you weren’t reflecting, you certainly do at that point. So take us, take us back. So you heard this, you heard this brilliant Bowie quote. So take us back to, to what happened next.

Bowie’s death had a— I was surprised at how much of an impact his death had on me. And I wasn’t a massive David Bowie fan, but I was hugely appreciative of his art and what he had done. You know, like he was just a pioneer and an individual. And, and I never thought that his passing would have such an effect on me.

So I think fast forward a few years, you know, and seeing the film and, you know, I was moved by that film in many ways. And I think, yeah, I just, it just connected with me, that particular quote, you know, and it was, it was like a light bulb moment for me. Yeah, that’s really interesting because I had exactly the same response, Glenn. In that, you know, obviously, you know, I’m into my music and I obviously, you know, respected Bowie and enjoyed like kind of portions, you know, there’s bits of his back catalog I know better than others.

It was Bowie’s death that just— that’s— it’s probably out of any kind of celebrity death that I’ve lived through, it was the one that really shook me. And I’m still not even quite sure why that is. Yeah, just the fact that he’s always been a constant. He’s always been there as long as I remember being alive.

I’ve known about him. Yeah, I know. I, I think another kind of— sorry, I know we will get back to you. I don’t want to go off on a Bowie monologue.

Trust me, I like having a conversation, not, not one way. But the other thing about Bowie that I thought was interesting is that before his death, he was producing some of his best music. I think he was certainly— the last couple of albums, he was really pushing it. Yeah, the very final album, I mean, some of it is, is it’s so hard to listen to because of the lyrics.

Yes. And he’s dealing with his own imminent demise, basically. Anyway, sorry, Glenn. Uh, no, no, don’t apologize.

Well, I was going to speak about David Bowie when we finished. Yeah, yeah, that’s another podcast. Um, but I think, I think possibly what you said is, is why, you know, not quite understanding why he had— why his passing had an effect. I think it’s probably— it’s your age and what you’re exposed to.

And maybe we’re of a similar age, perhaps. And, and, you know, you look, and if you’re into your music, and he was, you know, when we were of such a, you know, you come out of your, you know, you’re 10, you’re 11, 12, you get into your early teenage years, you start getting into art and what you’re into. And he was just there, wasn’t he? He was very, even though it probably wasn’t what you were into at the time.

I mean, I mean, in the early ’80s, you know, tight denims, long hair, mullets, white boots. I was a full-on heavy metal kid, you know, but I wasn’t a massive Bowie fan, but there wasn’t, there wasn’t the outlet of exposure. To media then as there is now. So you just had Top of the Pops, so you just— or then MTV.

But Bowie was everywhere, wasn’t he, in the ’80s for us? So what happens then? How did this kind of feed into your sort of career change then? What happens?

What happened then? So we’re in that year of ’22 where, uh, you know, I’d lost, I’d lost a dear friend and the work changes were happening. And, and, you know, I was though from really 2018, so those 4 years, you know, I was falling out of love with what I was doing and who I was doing it with, you know, with the great respect to everyone that I was working with. I did have a great team of people, you know, a wonderful team of people.

It wasn’t the Bowie quote that was, you know, a subliminal message, you must now leave, but it was, I think, enough of a sign along with those events of the prior years. That just said, it’s down to you now, Glenn. You, you, you’ve got to do something. So, you know, I left that, that world, you know, which, and it was a big part of my world at the end of ’22.

I had no idea what I was going to do next. No idea. But I knew that I definitely knew that I couldn’t repeat. It wasn’t about, oh, I just need a new job.

I just wanted that whole type of existence out of my life, you know, being glued to a laptop. Meetings, being hijacked by a diary, not having a life. I wanted more control of my life and my future, but I didn’t know what that looked like and what tools or what I was going to do to enable me to have that life. No idea at all.

So I’m kicking about, I’ve got some time on my hands and I’ve got some DIY to do at home, always some DIY, and I’m pretty handy. I’ve done a fair bit of work on the properties we’ve had over the years. And there was this one crack in a bedroom that was pretty bad, and I thought, I reckon I can fix that, I reckon I can fix that. So, you know, I started to it on this, on this, on this crack, and I just loved— and it was quite immediate.

I thought, hang on a minute, I’ve just got the radio here, it’s just me in this room, there’s no one else about. All that I’ve got to resolve is this awful crack in this wall, right? And, and I gave it my best shot, you know, I filled it and attempted a version of plastering, but I just loved it. It felt quite therapeutic, that whole process.

And I didn’t, I didn’t know why, but I just enjoyed it. I thought, I reckon I need to know how to do that properly. How do I do that? And, um, we found a course.

My wife actually found a course. We were looking like, let’s go on a plastering course. There must be some plastering courses. It’s like, okay, yeah, let’s do that.

One-week plastering course, early ’23. Um, it was tough, I won’t lie, um, that, that first week, but it was, it was a good enough introduction for me. And it was, it was such a, you know, coming, coming from an ordered, shall I say, structured, almost, um, quite sterile office environment thrown into what’s pretty much a, um, a murk construction site for these plastering courses. I found it entertaining, uh, a lot of banter, you know, I won’t go into what was or wasn’t said.

Um, but, you know, it was fun, you know, it was just such a release. It was just another— this was a— so from all those other signs, this was another sign to me that, oh, this feels, this feels good. And I’m very much a feeling person. If it feels good, feels bad, I will just— I will make a decision based on how I feel.

And I thought, let’s go with this, this feels good. So, you know, I learned, I learned some basics. Um, so I get back Uh, home. And then the following week I didn’t have anything lined up, you know, just some, you know, normal sort of house admin stuff.

But I felt there was something missing. I thought that’s— I felt quite aimless. I thought, oh, I actually, I want to go back to that place. And, and whilst I was on that course, the tutor had mentioned that, you know, if I wanted to develop my skills and, and do it as a job, or, you know, get, get, get recognized with it, with a trade, you know, there are these sort of 6-week intensive courses that you can do.

So I followed up with the tutor, I said, look, is that course still available? Can I get on it? Yeah, yeah, you can. There’s one space left, you can come in next week.

It’s like, great, you know. So it’s 6 weeks intensive training, um, it was fantastic. And it was the hardest thing I have ever done physically. I was the oldest person on the course, and, um, so I felt quite proud of that, you know, just keeping up with them all and just doing it because it’s a tough job, um.

And I passed. I got, I got, I got certification from British Gypsum as an accredited, uh, site-ready skim plasterer. So I set up an Instagram page, um, and I put a note out on the street WhatsApp group, you know, that I was just at a career change. Anyone need any work doing, whatever it may be, sort of kind of like the local handyman.

I knew I didn’t want to be a full-time plasterer. I thought, I don’t think I’ll last because it’s so hard. You don’t see, you don’t see many old plasterers, and if you do, they can barely walk. But I loved, you know, I do love the skill, and that stood me in good stead.

It just snowballed from there. And, you know, like, like the summer jobs, I love working outside. So a lot of people with these— we’ve got Victorian terraced houses here, you know, the masonry surrounds, you’ve got all the corbels and the, and the lintels and all the detail and all that paintwork that sometimes just gets a bit rotten. I’ve been repairing those and using those skills really that I learned back on the plastering course.

How, when you kind of take into account how you feel now, you know, after this change of career compared to how you felt in that period of uncertainty, I mean, it sounds overwhelmingly positive. And has that been the case? Yeah, totally. It has and it remains so.

Yeah. I mean, it’s the polar opposite. So, you know, I’m thankful. I’m very grateful that it’s panned out that way.

You just don’t know. And like I said, I didn’t know where I was going really, but I took, I guess, that little seed of a sign. Like I said, when I was doing that DIY job, thought, well, let’s see where that might lead. But it chimed with that earlier, the initial thought of, well, I know I need to do something totally different.

So what is that? Let’s go and explore. And I think it would— and that’s really, that’s really not, or I hadn’t up until that point been in my nature to take those risks to make a change. You know, we get routine, we’re creatures, it’s just in our DNA, isn’t it?

We, you know, a job gives us security, we build a life around it, we get comfortable, we get routines, and, and why would we want to break it? Why? It’s not broken. I can— I’ve got my telly, I’ve got my cable TV, I’ve got a laptop, you know.

You have all the nice trappings of a successful career. And what that does to your identity as well, because we can— there are a lot of people who tie in their status at work to who they are as people. And I think it’s a really powerful move to turn around and go, that doesn’t apply to me. Yeah, well said.

And yeah, that’s really where I was at. I, I wasn’t precious about that, you know, what, where I was coming from. I didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t need that. I never needed that.

Yeah, it just wasn’t me. And I just thought I needed to do something for me, but not just for me. What, what I am— I think it’s the flip side. What I did want to say about all this is, you know, that big, the big change really is obviously I don’t travel anymore.

I mean, all the work that I get is within half a mile of my house now, pretty much, you know. And this year, this year I’ve been on my street for for most of the year. You know, so my wife loves that, you know, we have lunch every day and, you know, that, like, it’s that, that work-life balance is, again, touch wood, you know, it’s there at the moment and it’s good. And, but, but the other element of this is I’m, I’m having immediate, I’m having not only for me and my work, I’m having an immediate impact on the people I’m working with or rather for.

You know, my clients, it goes back to, you know, when I was staring at that wall that I was first trying to fix. It’s just such, it’s just much more tangible existence. You know what I mean? It’s like, well, I’m getting results every day or at the end of 2 weeks or whenever I finish a project and I move on to the next one, as opposed to what it felt like that nothing ever got resolved in a big company setting.

You know, you’re just fanning the flames and moving and moving and trying to dodge bullets and fight the fires and all those clichés, you know. It’s such a cliché, isn’t it? But you really are just a cog in the wheel. You’re an irreplaceable one.

Yeah. And this sense that the work that you do doesn’t have purpose, doesn’t have meaning, can really drag you down. Like, what’s, what’s the point? And I’m making people happy.

That’s, that’s what I get from it as well, you know. Like, some, you know, like someone wants some decorating you know, they’re not happy, there’s a condition of a wall or stairs, you know, I can make that better for them. And does it kind of embolden you somewhat in that you’ve had this big change that— and we should definitely not play down the bravery of changing in such a complete change like that from something you were very used to. Into something new.

And so you’ve done this thing, and is that something that you can now— I would imagine, you know, going forward— Yes. That when you do have those big decisions to make that we all do, or life throws up those situations that are difficult, that you’ve got that kind of in your arsenal now? You say, well, you know, I’ve done this, so I can do X, Y, and Z. Definitely.

It definitely has for me, Rob. You know, I mean, I’m a lot more of a, I take more risks, shall we say. I say yes to more things than I used to. Before I was in the music industry, I can’t remember if I mentioned this at all, but I was quite a keen amateur drummer, played in various bands on the London circuit, trying to get a record deal along with thousands of other musicians.

Um, so ironically, in the 22 years of working in the industry, I had no bandwidth, I had no headspace, no time to play music completely. You know, my schedule was completely dominated by that. Corporate salary job. So that work-life balance now, you know, I’ve got— I have time and I’m using that time more for me, you know.

So one of the things is playing the drums again, and it’s been— it’s been brilliant for my— not only, you know, I mean, the work that I now do that keeps me physically— it is physically demanding, you know. I’ve cut back from 5 to 4 days a week just to give myself a bit of a little bit of rest, longer weekend, and I use, say, the Friday to do all my admin and go and look at jobs and do quotes and stuff. But I also throw in the odd band rehearsal if needed. You know, I’m playing the drums, so it’s physically, but mentally it’s really healthy and nourishing.

And, you know, at the moment I’ve got 4 different band projects that I’m involved with, with my drumming again, and that makes me happy. Now you see, this explains your ease at doing a big change because drummers are all nutters, aren’t they? Drummers are all— Is that official? Yeah, it’s official.

Bass players are all a bit kind of quiet and introverted. Lead singers, obviously egotists. Drummers are just mental. I’d like to defy that stereotype, but yeah, I have heard that before.

Yeah. Glenn, can I ask you a personal question? And obviously, I mean, there’s one thing I’m really interested in about change, and you mentioned your wife, and she was, you know, she helped you look for this course, and she was really encouraging. So, yeah, one thing that I think is really interesting about change at the age that you have done it and the age that we are is being allowed to change.

And I know that sounds a bit weird, but sometimes people are so invested in the person that you were before, they kind of— it doesn’t fit them that you are somebody different. And I wondered whether that was something that you rubbed up against with anybody. I mean, it sounds like your wife is absolutely brilliant and, you know, really encouraging and you lead your best life kind of thing. Yeah, it’s totally that.

Yeah, yeah, she was very supportive, very supportive, you know, and we’ve always got on. We’re solid, you know, and we help one another when, when, when that’s, when that’s needed. Yeah, you know, I was there for her in those tough times and yeah, she’s been a rock for me and, um, and that means a lot, you know. You’re absolutely right, you know, it takes a lot of something to make a change.

To some it might seem, you know, you know, stupidity, bravery, but it’s guts or something, but So to have that support and encouragement goes a long way. And there’s something else that really struck me as well, and when you were talking, and it kind of reminds me of somebody that we spoke to before. So we spoke to James, who had a prostate cancer diagnosis. And there’s something that really struck me about the way that you’re speaking as well, is that when you go through the experience that you had with your wife, and also the experience that you had at work of sort of having to kind of look deep within as to what— actually, the answers are really simple.

And, you know, we’ve overcomplicated these things. But the thing that really struck me was like, I can have lunch with my wife every day. And these things that don’t sound kind of important when we’re heading out for a career and we’re being ambitious in our 20s and 30s and beyond. But actually, when it comes down to it, it’s things like that that are just so lovely.

Yeah, it is. Yeah, I heard that. Oh, that interview, that was really good. Um, it’s the basics, is that, you know, and again, it’s a cliché that we’ve heard, you know, keep things simple, but it is so true, isn’t it?

Um, and when you’ve been through the wringer personally, professionally, it’s the noise, it’s the chaos almost around it, you know, and the zany pace that, that you exist at during that period. And then to, to get off that treadmill, take a breath, you know, and just quieten things down. And it’s usually rewarding now, you know, to just have that peace and quiet, you know. Yeah.

And it’s like the work that you do now, the kind of the physically making something or fixing something or resolving a problem for somebody, that is something that is now giving you energy. Whereas it sounds like— but you got to the point where your energy was being taken. It was kind of going nowhere. You didn’t see that.

Yeah, yeah, totally draining. Absolutely. Yeah. So what I really want to do now to wrap things up is obviously to play Changes by David Bowie, which would be— I don’t know if you could sort that for us, Glenn.

Yeah, I don’t know with any of your old contacts, Glenn, if we could pull that off. I may have contacts, but— Honestly, I think David would be pretty cool about it though as well. I think unfortunately in a court of law, we think David would have been cool about it may not play out that well, unfortunately. Well, so thanks to Glenn for getting in touch and for sharing his story, which I thought he did really well.

Like we said at the start, I think that’s what he talked about is interesting, not just if you’re changing career, but if you’re going through any sort of change during your Sniper’s years. I think there’s a lot of relevant stuff that was talked about there. Absolutely, and I think this is one of the things that’s quite surprising to people is that Sniper’s is a time when you’re going to find yourself having to change because you’ve got to look after your parents. Famously, the sandwich generation.

You might find that you’ve got to change careers because you’ve been in the most recent round of redundancies. This kind of thing. And it’d be really interesting to find out how people have coped with that. Yeah, so if you have a story about change that you’ve either been through or are going through or thinking about going through, whether that’s relationships, whether it’s career, whatever it might well be, Do get in touch, and one of the best, and one of the easiest ways to do that is via Instagram, Sniper’s Alley Podcast on Instagram.

And what we’ll do as well is we’ll share Glen’s profile to our Instagram stories as well, and we’ll share his details. So, if he sounds like somebody that you’d like to get in touch with and follow, you should do that. Absolutely, especially if he needs your spare room doing, and you live in Walthamstow, you are laughing. Use discount Sniper’s— no, sorry, Glen hasn’t approved that at all.

Don’t try that.